'Alexander Dugin is ruled by the demon Astarot': Oleg Telemsky
19.05.2014
Anastasia Sarma
Many people still believe that all occultists and followers of the teachings of the philosopher Alistair Crowley are crazy Barmaleys who eat children for breakfast in the morning and copate with virgins in the evening. Let's try to forget about the creepy scenes that the cinema brought up in us with his "Rosemary's Child".
What does a modern gathering of people interested in esotericism, Jung's psychoanalysis and the teachings of the philosopher Alistair Crowley, better known as Thelema, look like? As a seminar or lecture, where Oleg Telemsky, a psychoanalyst, writer and occultist from Kaluga, acts as a teacher. He is also the creator of the site castalia.ru and the head of the cultural and educational society "Castalia". He is also ordained to the Order of the Eastern Templars.
Recently, the occultist held a two-day seminar called "Sovereign Jungianism" in Voronezh. After the seminar came to an end, Oleg Telemsky agreed to talk to the correspondent of the Internet newspaper "Voronezh Time". The conversation was entertaining - both for those who consider Alistair Crowley the father of Satanism and for parents who read Andersen's fairy tales to their children. After all, neither, as it turned out, is wrong.
"It's hard to get into the Order and it's easy to fly out of there"
- Oleg, your project "Castalia" began as an educational one. You started by posting translations of previously untranslated books by Jung, Crowley, etc. on the site. Why did you suddenly have such a desire to enlighten?
- It's a little different. Initially, it was my home page, where I posted my articles, my thoughts and scanned books. Then people appeared on the site forum who began to translate the originals. And I realized that the task of "Castalia" is to give people the opportunity to get acquainted with the primary sources of Jungian psychology, with the sources of a serious esoteric tradition. Because with the words "esoteric" and "occultism" in our head there are at best associations with E. Blavatsky and R. Steiner, and at worst - with the witchcraft of village grandmothers. Serious occultism is completely unknown - just like serious Jungian psychology.
- You are both a psychoanalyst and an occultist. You have a lot of hypostases. How many of them are in total and which one is the main one?
- Probably the main one is the creator of the Castalia project. The second hypostasis - I am dedicated to the Order of the Eastern Templars of the fifth degree. To get it, you need to stay in the Order for at least 15 years. Here is a direct analogy with Masonic degrees. As you get degrees, the influence increases, your strength increases. Thirdly, I'm really a Jungian psychoanalyst. I completed my training program at the Moscow Association of Analytical Psychology (IAAP), having received my second higher education (the first - psychological). I'm also the author of two books - about Telem and Taro. I always give myself a plead to write a third book, but I don't have time for it yet.
- How is the Order of the Templars you a member of different from the sect?
- It's easy to get into the sect, but it's hard to get out. On the contrary, it is very difficult to get to the Order, and it is very easy to fly out for the slightest discrepancy. For example, if a person drunk at a meeting like a pig. Or someone was nakmil. If you take more serious faults, it's the disclosure of the secret. If a person has discovered the circumstances of the initiation or the mystery of the ritual, he will be expelled from the Order.
To get into the Order, you need to be a person who is really interested in the occult and feels the call to something different. Before you dedicate yourself, you need to go through a year and a half of study at our college, read a certain number of books, master a certain number of techniques and listen to lectures. And this is not yet a guarantee that the one who wishes will be dedicated to the UOTO. And 90 percent of the fervor disappears. The word "sect", which is associated with preaching and calling everyone into their ranks, is definitely not appropriate here.
"Crowley admired St. Basil's Cathedral"
- Alistair Crowley is often called the father of Satanism. Is this really true and is Anton Sándor La Vey his follower?
- If we talk about La Vee, it's a firm "no." What do we mean by Satanism? If it is understood as the practice of worship, rituals and service to Satan - no matter how the Supreme Evil or as a misunderstood principle - then no, Crowley is not a Satanist. Because its main pantheon is the Egyptian gods - Nuit (Nut), Hagit (Hat) and Hor. The main holy text of the Thelemites is the Book of the Law, in which, first of all, the Egyptian gods are manifested. There are also indirect anti-Christian images in his work, but they are on the periphery. Yes, Crowley wrote "Hymn to Lucifer," but he also wrote "Hymn to Hecate" and "Hymn to Adonis" as a poet. If we talk about cult practice, tradition, there is no question of any Satanism here.
Another thing, Telema considers sexuality sacred. Thelema believes that the restrictions that humanity imposes on someone else's sexuality, condemning people of free sexuality, is a sin, it is evil. (Sexuality is freedom). And at this, the only point, the telemites converge with the Satanists. But nothing else.
- Satanists are often called teenagers who draw pentagrams in cemeteries. Who are they?
- These gentlemen are not even Satanists. There is a great definition for them - devil worshippers. If we are talking about the Satanism of La Vey, it is no, albeit primitive, but still philosophy. La Vey himself did not draw pentagrams in the cemetery, and moreover, in some essays he wrote that for any vandalism, destruction of aesthetic monuments, cutting off hands should be introduced. Devil worshippers are teenagers who have read gloomy texts. Some people hang out at this age for a long time, until old age. There are Satanists - fans of the specific ideas of Anton Sándor La Vey, who are fond of the aesthetics of black metal. Thelema is close to the aesthetics of not aggressive music, but symbolic poetry, Decadence.
- It is known that Alistair Crowley came to Russia...
- Moreover, he loved Russia very much. He visited Moscow and Nizhny Novgorod. It was in Russia that he wrote the essay "Heart of Holy Russia", inspired by the beauty of St. Basil's Cathedral, which, from his point of view, expressed the deep anarchism and freedom of the Russian genius - precisely because each dome is not like the others, but at the same time they all together create a kind of organic integrity. In addition, in Russia, Crowley wrote two of his main works - "Panu's Anthem" and "Gnostic Mass", where he described the main Thelemite ritual - a ritual for the glory of Eternal Femininity.
- If we talk about rock musicians, who was influenced by Crowley?
- It's the Beatles, Ozzy Osborn, who even has the song "Mr. Crowley." By the way, another famous figure in rock music is Marian Faithful, for a while the former mistress of Mick Jagger. Marian was a student of Jack Parsons, a direct student of Crowley.
"Snonics should be thrown into the trash"
- At your seminars, you, like Jung, pay great attention to dreams. Why is it important to listen to dreams?
- Dreams are the language of our unconscious, the language of our soul. In dreams, all the characters of our dreams are different facets of our psyche, our reality, our big "I". And of course, to know dreams is to know yourself. It is the dreams, according to Freud, that paved the "royal road to the unconscious."
- To know this or that dream, do I need to read dream books?
- Dream books should be thrown in the trash.
- And then how can an ordinary person who is not familiar with Jung's ideas recognize that there is a particular image?
- First of all, write down your dreams. Then ask yourself: what does this image mean to me? If you dreamed of a cat, ask yourself: what is it for me? Is it a predator that pursues mice, is it the opposite of a dog as a symbol of freedom, sexuality or is it a symbol of home comfort? From these associations you will find the right understanding of your dream. Although it's better to go to a psychologist with serious, crisis dreams. You have a rare city where the psychological infrastructure is well developed. In Voronezh, there are many adequate psychologists who studied in Moscow, St. Petersburg, studied, among other things, Jungian psychology. (For comparison, in other regions, Jungian psychoanalysts can be counted on the fingers of one hand). In this sense, I am delighted with Voronezh. Therefore, I advise your readers to go to psychologists, but first find out: do they share Jung's ideas? It is useless to go to a materialist psychologist who will bred everything to sex or reflexes.
"Children can't read Andersen - it's dangerous."
- In addition to dreams, Jung also explored fairy tales. Tell me, why are there so many illogical things in many Russian folk tales? For example, the tale of the chicken Ryaba, where everyone first tries to break a golden testicle, and then when it breaks, they cry?
- You know, these fairy tales seem strange to our daytime consciousness. In fact, any fairy tale obeys the logic of the myth, which is absolutely logical. If you want to understand the fairy tale about the chicken Ryaba, listen to the lectures of the famous folklorist philologist Sofia Agranovich on the Internet. She was one of the most educated women of Samara State University. I remember her lectures about fairy tales, where "Ryaba Chicken" is explained as a myth about the sun. Basic psychological structures are manifested in fairy tales. Russian folk tales are very important for the formation of a child. But taking this opportunity, I want to say that it's dangerous in fairy tales. In no case should children read Hans-Christian Andersen. I advise this not only as a psychologist, but also rely on the opinion of Jung's student, Maria-Louise von Franz.
- And why can't you read Andersen? Because many of his fairy tales have a sad end?
- Not only. In many ancient fairy tales, it is also a sad end, but there it corresponded to the logic of myth. And in Andersen's fairy tales, the fairy tale structure itself is narcissistic, painful. Andersen himself was an extremely unhappy man, and all his pain, I would even say, he embodied psychoticism in a perverted painful form of fairy tales. It is clear that a teenager at the age of 14 can read Andersen. But for a small child, a fairy tale becomes a life myth, fits into the foundation of personality. I strongly do not recommend putting Andersen in this program. All other fairy tales - read for your health.
- And what do you say about the sometimes very cruel fairy tales of the Grimm brothers? Of course, villains often die there, but not in a humane way?
- That's right! Understand: this is the logic of myth. First of all, the child perceives it very differently. The more progressive the society, the more a person moves away from his nature. Reality itself is cruel, life ends in death. Trying to create a sterile, emascified reality is disastrous. Such "sterile" trends could be observed in the 20s of the last century, when new proletarian fairy tales, fairy tales about the triumph of communism were written for children. But sterility kills the spirit, which, like a flower, fights for life, grows from the depths of the darkest soils. The fairy tale introduces us to the laws of this life in a simplified, metaphorical form. The problem of Andersen's fairy tales is not in cruelty and not even in the bad end, but in general pain, general wound.
- Have you read Andrei Platonov's prose? Share your impressions.
- Creepy texts. His prose reflected the infernal Russian unconscious, which threatens to escape now. Russian inferno is the desire for total merging, destruction of the individual in this flywheel, mechanism. Platonov's prose reflected terrible but prophetic things. According to his books, it is very good to diagnose the basic structures of the collective unconscious Soviet regime. The collective unconscious, which gravitated towards the community, to dissolution in the mass.
"For me, Dugin is a reference example of a black magician."
- How do you feel about various TV shows like "Battle of the Psychics"?
- In two s. It's good that humanity is getting used to the paranormal. Another thing is that the quality of the material leaves much to be desired. There is an interesting pattern here: what at one stage of evolution seems incredible, mystical, magical, at the next stage of evolution becomes everyday. For example, do you know what was considered the highest form of magic in ancient Egypt? Letter. Possession of writing was comparable to the ability to cause rain. It was one of the highest magical arts. By the way, this was also reflected in medieval culture. For example, the word "grimoire" (black magic text) has one root with the word "grammar". Thus, the ability to read, transmit information was once considered incredible, magical, and eventually became natural. I would venture to assume that maybe in 500 years people will be learning psychic from childhood.
- Do you think that real sorcerers participate in the "Battle of the Psychics"?
- No. But they're not actors. Some guys there really have something. But it must be understood that in reality everything does not happen the way we see on the screen. I know how this show is done. Imagine that you are a psychic who sees a person standing in front of him for the first time. Within two hours, you say on camera everything that comes to mind about him. And then only two minutes are cut out of this two-hour "flow of consciousness" depending on the scenario, which fall one hundred percent.
- How do you feel about the Yuzhinsky circle, where did the writer Yuri Mamleev, poet, translator and mystic Evgeny Golovin, artist and journalist Igor Dudinsky, philosopher Alexander Dugin came from?
- Let's decide right away: there is the Yuzhinsky circle, and there are individual people. I really love early Yuri Mamleev (his stories, novels "Moscow Gambit" and "Shatuns"). Now the writer is seriously ill, in fact, he is fighting for life. He did a lot for literature - he is the only non-French who joined the Union of Writers of France. And that says a lot.
I have immense respect for Yevgeny Vsevolodovich Golovin. I reread his books several times and I think he was one of the greatest people of his time. I am friends with his daughter, who helped us give lectures on Jungian psychology.
As for Dugin, I treat him sharply negatively - as a politician who now takes an ultra-conservative, totalitarian position and is doing everything to separate Russia from the rest of the world. I'm even more negative about the magical essence that owns it. Behind him is the demon Astaroth.( Astarot, according to Western demonology, is one of the highest-ranking demons in the hellish hierarchy. These are very serious forces of the infernal plan.
- So they manage it?
- Yes. And he may not know about it himself. This does not mean that the spirit came to him, as in the movies, and said: "Obey me, stard!" It's just that a certain entity begins to direct its energy through you, and you become the exponsion of this entity. Simply put, for me, Dugin is a reference example of a black magician. This is a man who started with sympathy for Hitler, Nazism. Interestingly, in the 90s, he "slipped" into Telema, even translated a couple of Crowley's texts. But I quickly realized that there was no power secret in Crowley's texts. He needs power, like any infernal entity. Dugin is a really infernal, terrible force. It is he and the forces behind him that have a very strong influence on the current government.
- And how did you understand that behind Dugin is the demon Astaroth?
- Back in the 80s, Dugin recorded several songs under the pseudonym HansZivers, one of them was called "Astarot". I advise all fans and connoisseurs of Dugin to listen to this song. This is the only place where he doesn't ly, where he opened up as he is. This is his real story...
Reference:
Thelema is a religious doctrine developed by the greatest magician Alistair Crowley (1875-1947). The main theses of this tradition are "Create your Will, such be the whole Law" and "Love is the law, love in accordance with the Will." These phrases are taken from the Book of Law, the central text of Telema, received as a revelation by Alistair Crowley and recorded in Cairo in 1904. The word "Telema" itself means "Will" in Greek.